The Gaming Den

virgil wrote: I explicitly asked for no Tomb of Horrors death traps.

Then you explicitly expressed disappointment that there wasn't some sort of perfect "this is the only solution!" situation you could present. Your desires are contradictory, that needs some pointing out. Because you need to decided if you want to be a railroading tomb of horrors dick or if you want to present non-dickish obstacles players can interact with in non-dickish ways.

And just about the ONLY "This is the only solution" setup for dungeon puzzles basically IS tomb of horrors read my mind railroad bullshit. That is it. Pretty much the definition of tomb of horrors bullshit is "Cast random spell X or die/fail/hit-DM-with-chair final destination no detours". In saying "but gee if they can do some OTHER thing then that makes me sad" you are asking for the tomb of horrors shit.

And all the more so since your "Random Spell X" required solution has no particular special trait other than "be further away" and there are like a million ways to bypass "something is way over there! oh noes!" in D&D. To prevent all of those is GOING to require extensive dickery. So you EITHER have to learn to live with "they are going to bypass things" OR you are going to have to live with being a tomb of horrors failed GM fucker.

When presented with the choice between making the players adhere to your railroad without alternative options AND not wanting to be a railroading dick of a GM... You don't get to pick both.

erik wrote:

PhoneLobster wrote:It's never been entirely clear to me if stacking metamagic enlarge would do either nothing due to some random bad wrong fun rule, add +100% (base) range each time (your interpretation or the "+300%" version or if it's supposed to add +100% of the current modified range with each step making it, 2x then 4x then 8x base range by the time you apply it three times stacking.

I think this one is in da rules and Virgil had it right.

[url wrote:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm[/url]]Multiplying

Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

Nah, it would do nothing:

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell

A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

I was figuring that the triple-strength rod is explicitly the key to the artifact holding safe. Like, it's a dangerous but useful artifact, so someone decided to lock it behind heavy defenses but leave a method for extracting it in case of apocalypse. That would obviate any mind-reading worries. Of course, since your players already have the rod instead of going looking for it, the situation is different.

The idea with the volcano was that it would destroy/deny any protective magic and banish summoned creatures within the cauldra. I guess that wouldn't stop a red/gold dragon from extracting it, though.

name_here wrote:I was figuring that the triple-strength rod is explicitly the key to the artifact holding safe. Like, it's a dangerous but useful artifact, so someone decided to lock it behind heavy defenses but leave a method for extracting it in case of apocalypse. That would obviate any mind-reading worries. Of course, since your players already have the rod instead of going looking for it, the situation is different.

Not really that different. That's almost exactly the situation; a villain wants an artifact under heavy defenses that could be overcome with a rod. When the BBEG tries to get it from them, they're going to find out why he wants it, which will lead the party to try to get it themselves with the item. It's not a puzzle because they'll know the answer before they even know the question.

It's not intended to be so protected that a high level group couldn't overcome it on their own, but the party is in the single digits and the villain isn't even in the teens; which means there should be demonstrable limits on their capability. I don't want it to be easily overcome by a barbazu or something, because then the villain could've just bound/bribed/threatened/dominated such a comparatively weak creature and never need the rod. Besides, if basic teleportation and minion summoning could get it, I would sack the guy I paid to seal the artifact. I want to avoid death traps that use hordes of umbral blots and whatnot, because overly complicated and fiat fueled contraptions are just plain ugly for numerous reasons.

Hell, if the only thing that matters is 'have the rod' you don't have to rely on the metamagic function at all. Not only does the rod enable a 3x enlarge spell, it's also the 'key' to the dungeon. Anyone carrying the key is able to bypass most of the challenges.

The wizard that created the artifact used this Rod as his personal symbol of authority. The traps he laid will not activate if someone holds the rod.

Of course, since he's been dead for several centuries, there are additional traps that he didn't place.

So, if the PCs want to get the artifact first, they need to bypass the normal dungeon denizens (or if the NPC antagonist captures the rod he needs to clear the initial rooms). Once they've bypassed the denizens, they can just stroll right in and grab the artifact they're after.

Of course, if the NPC antagonist reveals that the rod is the key to acquiring the artifact he really wants, then the PCs can weaken themselves clearing the dungeon, and just when they're about to approach the artifact he can launch a last desperate attack against them.

That's way easier than making the artifact only obtainable by a 3x enlarged spell.

Any short- or medium-range spell even with 3x the range doesn't compare to a long-range spell's range; and if you need 3x long range, you're getting into some pretty ridiculous territory.

Level 9
Short = 45 feet (x3 = 135 feet)
Medium = 190 feet (x3 = 570 feet)
Long = 940 feet (x3 = 2820 feet)

I suspect if you hand your players lock and key on a plate, they will kick the door down out of spite.

Which is to say, they'll put more effort than it's worth into finding a solution that isn't the GM's desire for all you know, and the effects on the campaign tone are not to be universally encouraged.

Honestly I think deadDMwalking's solution works best - having the Stick of Bypass 90% of the Dungeon is far less blatant of a railroad than having the Stick of Uniquely Solve The Final Hurdle.

deaddmwalking wrote:That's way easier than making the artifact only obtainable by a 3x enlarged spell.

Oh, it is, and I'm aware of that being an option. I was hoping to come up with a circumstance where the actual ability of the plot coupon would be necessary rather than having a bouncer check for ID at the door. Having the barriers be surmountable with phase door, limited wish, earthquake, or whatever is fine. That's magic a level 9 player wouldn't readily have access to.

That's why I came here for help. I wasn't quite expecting to apparently write with the clarity of Judging Eagle and Shadzar. Nor was I expecting to have to explain and excuse every nuance of the situation and still get admonished for asking "is there a way to use this that isn't Tomb of Horrors retarded?"

Omegonthesane wrote:I suspect if you hand your players lock and key on a plate, they will kick the door down out of spite.

Then your suspicion is wrong. As I told PL, I know my players. You don't. I give them a selection of places to go adventure when they ask "where can we get some treasure," one of which is in the Plane of Fire; am I terrible DM if an NPC (whom they pay) gives them rings of fire resistance to survive? If they go spelunking into dwarven ruins and find a bottle of air near-ish a mysteriously deep lake/well, am I a blatant railroader that should just hang up his DM hat? I guess that permanent prismatic sphere shouldn't ever be considered until the party can personally cast disintegrate and never consider giving them a scroll or a rod of negation?

virgil wrote:That's why I came here for help. I wasn't quite expecting to apparently write with the clarity of Judging Eagle and Shadzar. Nor was I expecting to have to explain and excuse every nuance of the situation and still get admonished for asking "is there a way to use this that isn't Tomb of Horrors retarded?"

The only slightly confusing thing to me is this: Why did you give the PCs a triple-strength rod of Enlarge Spell if you can't think of an interesting use for it?

virgil wrote: I was hoping to come up with a circumstance where the actual ability of the plot coupon would be necessary rather than having a bouncer check for ID at the door. Having the barriers be surmountable with phase door, limited wish, earthquake, or whatever is fine. That's magic a level 9 player wouldn't readily have access to.

So what do the players have access to? What spells do the wizards typically prepare?

Obviously things like 'longer range Dimension Door' are totally possible to include in the challenge. A tunnel impossibly small for the PCs to cross of ~2000 feet can be bypassed with a 3x enlarged dimension door. But it could also be overcome by ethereal jaunt or polymorph without the use of Enlarge Spell.

Finding a barrier that can only be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell is significantly more difficult than finding a barrier that can most easily be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell.


Regarding the Rod being a 'check for ID', in game it can be rather reasonable - the fact that the PCs didn't know about the additional property hardly matters - and by altering the difficulty of the dungeon for either the Antagonist or the PCs, it would clearly have value even if the BBEG didn't have access to the same spells as the PCs. Because if you find a way to make it so a 3x Enlarged 'Spell Y' is the best way to overcome the barrier, you have to explain why or how the NPC has that spell, too.

deaddmwalking wrote: Finding a barrier that can only be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell is significantly more difficult than finding a barrier that can most easily be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell.

I'm trying to think of anything in D&D that gives a fuck if you're 2000' away rather than 500' (or whatever). I can't really think of anything that does some sort of range check on the caster before the incoming spell effect takes place. If it is just a giant anti-magic field over a chasm (or similar cliche), it just feels like Evil Overlord Plot #73.

Really, the tendency to handwave anything past 100' in D&D makes this challenge a little odd from square one. I can easily see not caring about Mega Triple Enlarge Spell, because the basic Enlarge Spell feat (or rod) generally isn't worth caring about. I know that under typical campaign assumptions, I'd immediately try to sell or trade it for something useful.

Voss wrote:

deaddmwalking wrote: Finding a barrier that can only be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell is significantly more difficult than finding a barrier that can most easily be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell.

I'm trying to think of anything in D&D that gives a fuck if you're 2000' away rather than 500' (or whatever). I can't really think of anything that does some sort of range check on the caster before the incoming spell effect takes place.

Really, the tendency to handwave anything past 100' in D&D makes this challenge a little odd from square one. I can easily see not caring about Mega Triple Enlarge Spell, because the basic Enlarge Spell feat (or rod) generally isn't worth caring about. I know that under typical campaign assumptions, I'd immediately try to sell or trade it for something useful.

The only time it will matter is if you can't physically get within the normal range. So if your 'Dimension Door' is 940 feet, but you need to Dim Door 1000 feet, you'll need Enlarge. Obviously, you could Teleport instead, but you might want to avoid the error chance or some such.

deaddmwalking wrote:Finding a barrier that can only be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell is significantly more difficult than finding a barrier that can most easily be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell.

Allow me to quote myself from the first post...

I am considering an adventure with an artifact sealed inside something that would most efficiently be overcome by a magic item that applies a triple strength Enlarge metamagic.

While the party doesn't have access to polymorph magic, they do have an imp familiar and I'm not sure how an extra-range D-Door would beat greater teleport; as that's a consideration since the villain does have access to barbazu minions.

deaddmwalking wrote:

Voss wrote:

deaddmwalking wrote: Finding a barrier that can only be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell is significantly more difficult than finding a barrier that can most easily be bypassed by a 3x Enlarge spell.

I'm trying to think of anything in D&D that gives a fuck if you're 2000' away rather than 500' (or whatever). I can't really think of anything that does some sort of range check on the caster before the incoming spell effect takes place.

Really, the tendency to handwave anything past 100' in D&D makes this challenge a little odd from square one. I can easily see not caring about Mega Triple Enlarge Spell, because the basic Enlarge Spell feat (or rod) generally isn't worth caring about. I know that under typical campaign assumptions, I'd immediately try to sell or trade it for something useful.

The only time it will matter is if you can't physically get within the normal range. So if your 'Dimension Door' is 940 feet, but you need to Dim Door 1000 feet, you'll need Enlarge. Obviously, you could Teleport instead, but you might want to avoid the error chance or some such.

Right, but the problem is, if it is somehow the 'only solution,' it is going to naturally feel forced, because, well, it is. Even if you can't reach it with dim-door, won't use teleport, and can't find a creative solution in the pages and pages of other spells, there is something serious afoot. Either the plot needs to go on the Evil Overlord list, or the party needs a five year old to give them ideas.

virgil wrote:While the party doesn't have access to polymorph magic, they do have an imp familiar and I'm not sure how an extra-range D-Door would beat greater teleport; as that's a consideration since the villain does have access to barbazu minions.

I thought you said they were level 9? Why wouldn't they have access to polymorph? Or summoning something that can? Or friends/allies/mercenaries?

The fundamental problem is, with all the things that spells can do in D&D, even while still in single digit levels, 3x range on a particular spell is never going to be more efficient than all the other things that spells can do. Magic really does offer trivial solutions to all problems. [Except obviously in 4e, which I assume isn't in play here, because it involves complex solutions that don't involve shooting people in the face with lasers]

If the ward needed a particular series of spells to be cast at it (like Prismatic Sphere) in order to dismantle it, but unlike a normal sphere, it reflected the spells back at the original caster, standing outside of the range of the prismatic sphere would be beneficial.

Assuming the Defensive Barrier had a CL of 20, it's long range would be (400 + (40x20) = 1200 feet). Any use of Enlarge Spell would be sufficient to put your PCs out of harm's way (not necessarily 3x), but if they either don't have the Feat or can't afford the higher level spell slots, it would be the easiest way to replicate.

(Note that most of the spells used to overcome Prismatic Sphere are not affected by Enlarge Spell - Cones and Touch spells are not affected - but the general principle could still apply with different spells used to overcome the layers).

Facetious suggestion: They need to hit two switches a fair distance apart at *literally* the exact same time. One 3x Enlarge Fireball later...

More seriously if it only has to be more efficient than the party's better spells - that triple-enlarged D-Door is one less Greater Teleport they have to use that day. (I assume they do not have access to limitless Greater Teleports within a 24-hour period.)

Omegonthesane wrote:Facetious suggestion: They need to hit two switches a fair distance apart at *literally* the exact same time. One 3x Enlarge Fireball later...

While facetious, that would actually require Widen Spell. Enlarge Spell (badly named) lets you stand further back when you cast Fireball. Widen Spell makes increases the area your Fireball occupies.

Avoraciopoctules wrote:1. A scientist wants to take a sample of a magically active comet on the far side of the solar system, but the custom teleportation effect they've plugged into their magic telescope only reaches half as far as they need.
2. The Emperor has commissioned a grand line of magical semaphore towers, but the project looks like it will come in over budget. If somebody could find a way to improve the enchantments so the towers were effective over longer distances, a lot of engineers would owe them favors.
3. One charge of Control Weather is all the Tower of Eagles can generate per month, but a single casting won't reach far enough to deal with the entire drought-struck area. And no other available Metamagic Rod is powerful enough to boost the Tower's magic.

4. A fancy airship has a contingent Featherfall designed to save people who fall off, but it doesn't cover enough area.

But if this is specifically about using plot coupon 1 to get plot coupon 2, I like the first idea. Plot coupon 2 is so far away that you need a telescope to see its vault as a glowing dot. Regular teleportation won't work on it because the structure is moving at high speed, and the custom spell developed to solve the problem needs more range.

Here are the ideas presented that I think show actual promise.

• Retributive Vault: Several different spells can damage and open the vault, but it needs to be used twice over two consecutive rounds before it reforms and will smack everything within X'
  Chamber of Storms: A transdimensional control winds in an underground chamber a mile in diameter that stops teleportation, with the item in the center.
  Speak Friend and Fall: A low-orbit satellite 30 some-odd miles up, thought to be a star, has a deactivation password attached to the hover coils. The air is too thin for speech to travel, but whispering wind brings its own.
  The More You Know: A distant comet is rocketing away, too fast for normal teleport to function and the custom researched one from the facility is too short by a third to reach it.
  Quitting Time: Normal dungeon, but the rod has a passkey built into it, circumventing the traps. Or just some CR 17 monster stands guard and won't kill anyone who carries the rod.

Friend came up with another idea...

Buddhist Special: One with Everything
Hurtling through space is a vault shrouded in a mile diameter windstorm, passing close enough that a custom teleport spell can reach a full third of the way to it. The vault will fire a death laser at any & all creatures, but has an effective range limit of 35 miles. Both propulsion and death laser can be deactivated with a verbal command (difficult in space unless you use whispering wind), the trajectory if the propulsion is killed will cause it to crash to the nearest planet; the transdimensional windstorm system will continue to function, but will be sufficiently damaged from planetfall that stuff like a fireball can finish the job if the caster gets close enough. Inside the vault is a series of traps, but the rod will deactivate them due to a built in passkey system.

ishy wrote:Nah, it would do nothing:

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell

A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

Harrumph. I should have referenced the 3e SRD instead of 3.5 to lay the basis for my argument that I was thinking in 3e terms when stacking metamagic was not verboten. Flippin 3.5 messing me up even now with its stupid changes.

So there's a windstorm.... in space?

And at the same time you have trouble making sounds because there isn't an atmosphere?

And the artifact is something more valuable to the BBEG than a spaceship that can shoot mile-long death lasers?

I'm sure you know your players, but I personally would raise the eyebrow of skepticism. No offense.

The BBEG sets up a Tower Defense map around his inner sanctum. The towers have more range than your unenhanced spells, or even your enlarged x1 spells.

Enlarged x4 to the rescue!

Similar to Quitting Time...

Scorpion King's Bane

The rod when used to triple enlarge a spell lights up a sequence of gemstones.
The gemstones when pushed in order act as buttons that trigger a blade to telescope out of the rod turning it into the Spear of Osiris.

The Spear of Osiris is the only weapon which can harm the guardian of the artifact, the Scorpion King, an ancient ruler bound by a curse from a dark god to guard the artifact.

Totally original.

Avoraciopoctules wrote:So there's a windstorm.... in space?

And at the same time you have trouble making sounds because there isn't an atmosphere?

And the artifact is something more valuable to the BBEG than a spaceship that can shoot mile-long death lasers?

I'm sure you know your players, but I personally would raise the eyebrow of skepticism. No offense.

The windstorm shoots out half a mile out and dissipates too thin to carry sound must past that, and within that windstorm is a no-teleport zone. Since you have to be more than 35 miles away to avoid getting death rays to the face, you'll be very much in vacuum. As for the spaceship's value, there's no command password and the deactivation password turns off death ray and propulsion both; the crash destroying much in the way of its ability to operate.

The artifact within hasn't been fully decided yet, but the opinion of the friend if the Buddhist Special is used is that it should hold the Gold Orb of Dragonkind.

Eeeeh. Be careful, man. If I was playing, I'd chuck the orb into the Batcave and keep the killsat. I'd float it over a major city, send down a projected image, and announce that I was holding it for ransom.

"People of Toril, until my demands are met, I will destroy a city every week. I want one hundred million... copper!"[/DoctorEvil]